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Debate
May 16, 2009 21:11:27 GMT -5
Post by Zandra Saiquies on May 16, 2009 21:11:27 GMT -5
Alright. This thread is a bit more serious then the others on this board. Time to debate the real things in life! (this is my favoritest thing in the world!!!) Since I'm first post, i hope nobody minds me kicking this off. (I do apologize. This topic i'm presenting only directly effects US citizens. Everybody can put their two cents in though!) af4e.deviantart.com/journal/24792070/I did not post that journal, a friend did but what he's saying is rather unsettling. Does anyone have any input on this? Agree? Disagree? Why? I partially agree. Yes, the government has been working with the CEOs, Car companies and Banks but they aren't taking them over. They're removing the poor leadership and reshaping them to avoid job loss. It's not a complete take over. Example: crystler is closing 1000+ car dealerships. That was not a government decision. The government just pushed them to do it. All the same, the parallels are frightening.
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Debate
May 17, 2009 15:42:31 GMT -5
Post by Beowulf Keyes on May 17, 2009 15:42:31 GMT -5
This is a parellel that I imediatly discount due to to opposite being drawn to something like Nazi Germany. Here is a little more food for thought:
"Something of Historic Proportion is Happening" by Pam Geller
I am a student of history. Professionally. I have written 15 books in six languages, and have studied [History] all my life. I think there is something monumentally large afoot, and I do not believe it is just a banking crisis, or a mortgage crisis, or a credit crisis. Yes, these exist, but, they are merely single facets on a very large gemstone that is only now coming into a sharper focus.
Something of historic proportions is happening. I can sense it because I know how it feels, smells, what it looks like, and how people react to it. Yes, a perfect storm maybe brewing, but there is something happening within our country that has been evolving for about 10 - 1 5 years. The pace has dramatically quickened in the past two.
We demand and then codify into law the requirement that our banks make massive loans to people whom we know can never pay back? Why? We learn just days ago that the Federal Reserve, which has little or no real oversight by anyone, has "loaned" two trillion dollars (that is $2,000,000,000,000) over the past few months, but will not tell us to whom or why or disclose the terms. That is our money. Yours and mine. And that is three times the $700B we all argued about so strenuously just this past September.
Who has this money? Why do they have it? Why are the terms unavailable to us? Who asked for it? Who authorized it? I thought this was a government of "We the People," who loaned our powers to our elected leaders. Apparently not.
We have spent two or more decades intentionally de-industrializing our economy. Why?
We have intentionally dumbed down our schools, ignored our history, and no longer teach our founding documents, why we are exceptional, and why we are worth preserving. Students by and large cannot write, think critically, read, or articulate. Parents are not revolting, teachers are not picketing, and school boards continue to back mediocrity. Why?
We have now established the precedent of protesting every close election (now violently in California over a proposition that is so controversial that it wants marriage to remain between one man and one woman. Did you ever think such a thing possible just a decade ago?). We have corrupted our sacred political process by allowing unelected judges to write laws that radically change our way of life, and then mainstream Marxist groups like ACORN and others to turn our voting system into a banana republic. To what purpose?
Now our mortgage industry is collapsing, housing prices are in free fall, major industries are failing, our banking system is on the verge of collapse, Social Security is nearly bankrupt, as is Medicare and our entire government. Our education system is worse than a joke (I teach college and know precisely what I am talking about.) The list is staggering in its length, breadth, and depth. It is potentially 1929 x 10. And we are at war with an enemy we cannot name for fear of offending people of the same religion who cannot wait to slit the throats of your children if they have the opportunity to do so.
And now we have elected a man no one knows anything about, who has never run so much as a Dairy Queen, let alone a town as big as Wasilla , Alaska . All of his associations and alliances are with real radicals in their chosen fields of employment, and everything we learn about him, drip by drip, is unsettling if not downright scary (Surely you have heard him speak about his idea to create and fund a mandatory civilian defense force stronger than our military for use inside our borders? No? Oh, of course. The media would never play that for you over and over and then demand he answer it. Sarah Palin's pregnant daughter and $150,000 wardrobe is more important.) Mr. Obama's winning platform can be boiled down to one word: Change. Why?
I have never been so afraid for my country and for my children as I am now. This man campaigned on bringing people together, something he has never, ever done in his professional life. In my assessment, Obama will divide us along philosophical lines, push us apart, and then try to realign the pieces into a new and different power structure. Change is indeed coming. And when it comes, you will never see the same nation again.
And that is only the beginning.
I thought I would never be able to experience what the ordinary, moral German felt in the mid-1930s. In those times, the savior was a former smooth-talking rabble-rouser from the streets, about whom the average German knew next to nothing. What they did know was that he was associated with groups that shouted, shoved, and pushed around people with whom they disagreed; he edged his way onto the political stage through great oratory and promises. Economic times were tough, people were losing jobs, and he was a great speaker. And he smiled and waved a lot. And people, even newspapers, were afraid to speak out for fear that his "brown shirts" would bully them into submission. And then he was duly elected to office, with a full-throttled economic crisis at hand [the Great Depression]. Slowly but surely he seized the controls of government power, department by department, person by person, bureaucracy by bureaucracy. The kids joined a Youth Movement in his name, where they were taught what to think. How did he get the people on his side? He did it promising jobs to the jobless, money to the moneyless, and goodies for the military-industrial complex. He did it by indoctrinating the children, advocating gun control, health care for all, better wages, better jobs, and promising to re-instill pride once again in the country, across Europe and across the world.
He did it with a compliant media - Did you know that? And he did this all in the name of justice and.... change. And the people surely got what they voted for. (Look it up if you think I am exaggerating.) Read your history books. Many people objected in 1933 and were shouted down, called names, laughed at, and made fun of. When Winston Churchill pointed out the obvious in the late 1930s while seated in the House of Lords in England (he was not yet Prime Minister), he was booed into his seat and called a crazy troublemaker. He was right, though.
Don't forget that Germany was the most educated, cultured country in Europe . It was full of music, art, museums, hospitals, laboratories, and universities. And in less than six years - a shorter time span than just two terms of the U. S. presidency - it was rounding up its own citizens, killing others, abrogating its laws, turning children against parents, and neighbors against neighbors. All with the best of intentions, of course. The road to Hell is paved with them.
As a practical thinker, one not overly prone to emotional decisions, I have a choice: I can either believe what the objective pieces of evidence tell me (even if they make me cringe with disgust); I can believe what history is shouting to me from across the chasm of seven decades; or I can hope I am wrong, close my eyes, have another latte and ignore what is transpiring around me.
Some people scoff at me; others laugh or think I am foolish, naive, or both. Perhaps I am. But I have never been afraid to look people in the eye and tell them exactly what I believe - and why I believe it. I pray I am wrong. I do not think I am. Pamela "Atlas" Geller
_________________________________________________ Personaly I disagree as shown in my rebuke:
This is sensationalist garbage that tries to extrapolate ambitious conclusions from mediocre evidence. While I don't deny that there are some troubling developments brewing right now, (the unmitigated well of bailouts, the crumbling education system, the over-zealous otherization in foreign policy, etc.) I think this Pam Geller (whose only book I could find was feminist anthropology), is utilizing the politics of fear and uses a model to reach conclusions that throw rationality out the window.
This can be seen through her obvious punditry in her analysis of Obama. While I feel all politicians are open to scrutiny, especially those who have the audacity and ambition to run for President, she uses the fear of the unknown to blast Obama. The fact of the matter is that you can get to know what style Obama has and his experience rather quickly. There are many things that people don't often realize, like Obama's cut-throat nature when it comes to getting his way. (His first Illinois election was won by him getting his opponents knocked off the ballot.) But to say that this is an enigma we've elected is silly. Look at the transparency he has created through various websites. The choices he makes for his cabinet illustrate a man open to opposition, not a man trying to swarm himself with yesmen to bolster his power. Her cheap characterization of Obama as a man who doesn't bring people together falls in the face of reality.
Where is this philosophical divide that's going on in the country? The only real divide that exists is the obstructionist nature of congressional republicans as well as the arrogant self-assured ways of congressional democrats. There's no red v blue war going on in the people, we aren't being "shifted around into new power structures." The competition between people is a construct of a media that focuses on bringing us entertainment as opposed to the truth.
Using the evidence she provided doesn't create a direct link between the current administration and Nazi Germany. This is just fear mongering that is destructive and hurts our ability to make progress. If we allow ourselves to get sucked into negative emotions, we delude our judgment and get sucked into becoming nay sayers and obstructionists as opposed to actually focusing on pragmatic solutions.
If you folks want a more rational examination between our recent administrations and Hitler/Stalin, read End of America by Naomi Wolfe. She does a much better job of staying rational by pointing to specific problems in our system that could lead to a fascist society. (Emergency powers granted in the patriot act, ignoring international law by avoiding the Geneva Convention, Utilizing torture tactics taken straight from the KGB handbook, etc.) At least in Wolfe's perception, she rationalizes it by explaining this kind of power shift works in a pendulum fashion between security and liberty. We gain security at the cost of liberty, at some point we fight and push it back by giving ourselves more liberty. People abuse those liberties and we shift back to security. This cycle continues forever assuming we don't put blocks in. But the biggest point? She says that we shouldn't be afraid of what's happening, we should just be aware of it and work towards making it right again.
It's this type of irrationality used by Pam Geller that leads to mob-mentalities that destroy societies. Fear is the most powerful and destructive force a person can utilize. Don't fall victim to it. Knowledge is your greatest asset.
(This was an essay that I had to write in Global Issues class. I love debating to and I hope this puts forward a general overview of the issue.)
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T'cal
Violators
Righteous Of The Violators
Posts: 42
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Debate
May 17, 2009 18:53:58 GMT -5
Post by T'cal on May 17, 2009 18:53:58 GMT -5
Actually, Beowulf, she's utterly right. Hitler did bring about a lot of good in Germany. He gave the people jobs, commissioned roads and freeways (including the Autobahn), rebuilt the ruins that was Germany. He was elected into office, proposed plans to slowly sink his fingers in every pie in the gov't, then took them all......legally. Everything was quite legit, quite legal, and everyone allowed it to happen.
I've read Naomi Wolfe. She is indeed good. But remember that most people are indeed idiots. They're sheep and they're fools. Naomi uses perfect logic, with reasonable examples and scenarios that all explain what'll happen. In the end, her view is the same as Pam's. The difference is presentation. Pam writes this article with emotion rather then logic. Oh, it's certainly full of evidence and supports itself. But she lets her emotions show of just what she thinks of this. And she let's the reader know: it terrifies her.
Personally, I think we need both. You need that logic to see and understand what they're saying...but you telling me something is 0 degrees Celsius and describing in very logical terms is nothing compared to actually feeling and using those descriptions and emotions of what it feels like to touch something that cold.
And she did say he'd bring people together...in his terms.
As for the links between Obama and Nazi Germany, there have been similarities growing frightfully large ever since 2001ish. Hundreds have written upon them, always saying: but there is a chance to turn back. After Bush's second term, the message became: prepare yourselves, for while the chance remains to turn back....it doesnt look like it's gonna happen.
Do I think Obama will become the next Hitler? No. But I think he's either foolishly setting the stage for one or a puppet to blame later. Too many coincidences between what's happening in the US for the past several years and what's happened in many other dictatorial countries are appearing not to be concerned about.
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